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	<title>Comments on: Improving the Introductory CS experience</title>
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	<link>http://blog.gregbrockman.com/2010/02/improving-the-introductory-cs-experience/</link>
	<description>gdb&#039;s blog</description>
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		<title>By: Leonid Grinberg</title>
		<link>http://blog.gregbrockman.com/2010/02/improving-the-introductory-cs-experience/comment-page-1/#comment-6</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonid Grinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 03:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gregbrockman.com/?p=18#comment-6</guid>
		<description>So before being accepted to MIT I spent some time looking at CMU and Brown, including visiting both colleges and talking to friends, who were CS majors there.  I had a reasonable idea of what MIT&#039;s intro CS program looked, and a rough idea of Harvard&#039;s, so that&#039;s what I was comparing to.

CMU&#039;s intro course sounded a lot like CS50.  It was in Java, it was relatively slow .... basically it was glorified AP CS.  (They also have the unrelated issue that they separate &quot;Computer Science&quot; and &quot;Information Science&quot; into two separate schools, with the latter _really_ applied and the former _really_ theoretical (as theoretical as you can get without doing straight TCS).

Brown, on the other hand, was really surprisingly good.  They had almost exactly what you proposed --- a number of parallel intro courses of varying difficulty.  My friend had actually started one of them (he acted as a TA for it this year) and it was really surprisingly good; taught in Scheme, for one thing, and also going pretty far (further than what I think 6.001 did, certainly).  So yeah, if you want to reform intro CS education, go look at Brown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So before being accepted to MIT I spent some time looking at CMU and Brown, including visiting both colleges and talking to friends, who were CS majors there.  I had a reasonable idea of what MIT&#8217;s intro CS program looked, and a rough idea of Harvard&#8217;s, so that&#8217;s what I was comparing to.</p>
<p>CMU&#8217;s intro course sounded a lot like CS50.  It was in Java, it was relatively slow &#8230;. basically it was glorified AP CS.  (They also have the unrelated issue that they separate &#8220;Computer Science&#8221; and &#8220;Information Science&#8221; into two separate schools, with the latter _really_ applied and the former _really_ theoretical (as theoretical as you can get without doing straight TCS).</p>
<p>Brown, on the other hand, was really surprisingly good.  They had almost exactly what you proposed &#8212; a number of parallel intro courses of varying difficulty.  My friend had actually started one of them (he acted as a TA for it this year) and it was really surprisingly good; taught in Scheme, for one thing, and also going pretty far (further than what I think 6.001 did, certainly).  So yeah, if you want to reform intro CS education, go look at Brown.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Riggle</title>
		<link>http://blog.gregbrockman.com/2010/02/improving-the-introductory-cs-experience/comment-page-1/#comment-5</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Riggle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gregbrockman.com/?p=18#comment-5</guid>
		<description>Back in &lt;i&gt;my&lt;/i&gt; day, in 6.001...  *shakes cane*

Actually, back in my day, despite that 6.001 did cover a lot of stuff that I hadn&#039;t been exposed to before, I still felt it moved too slowly, and I desperately wanted a 6.0012 that I could take analogous to 8.012.

On the other hand, there&#039;s a perception with 8.012 that if you want to major in physics you &lt;i&gt;have&lt;/i&gt; to take 8.012 and not 8.01, so if 8.012 is targeted at people with previous physics experience, that&#039;s sending the message that you &lt;i&gt;have&lt;/i&gt; to have previous physics experience to major in physics.  (I don&#039;t know whether that&#039;s actually the case or not.  Certainly I didn&#039;t have enough previous physics experience coming in to be able to take 8.012.)  Course 6 definitely &lt;i&gt;doesn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; want to send the message that you &lt;i&gt;have&lt;/i&gt; to have previous CS experience to major in CS at MIT (and you don&#039;t!).

So much of what you come in with academically is a function of privilege -- I look at the kids who went to TJ, or had a huge selection of AP and honors and language courses to choose from, with a huge amount of envy, and I&#039;m hugely &lt;i&gt;lucky&lt;/i&gt; to have gotten the 3 AP classes and 7 or so local college classes I got in high school.  Even only six years on, it&#039;s now much harder for students at my old high school to get those opportunities, due to a variety of administrative and other changes.  A lot of my programming experience comes from having gotten interested in it at a formative age, having parents and grandparents who were willing to guide me as best they could, and just being obsessed with it for a decade or so before coming to MIT.  Not everybody gets that.  Certainly it would have been much harder for me to do the same thing with physics or math had I wanted to, because even those resources wouldn&#039;t have been available to me.

On some level CS &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; a more democratic field than physics or math, mostly in that in CS you&#039;re not nearly so locked into an academic career path, and it&#039;s not expected that the brightest 1% of 1% are &lt;i&gt;necessarily&lt;/i&gt; going to go academic.  (The brightest 1% of 1% are just as likely to swan off and found a startup or work for a Google or something, and even CS academia has a lot more overlap with industry than physics or math academia.)

There must be some way to meet the needs of the top 1% of 1%, without sending a message to the remaining 99% of 1% that you must be in the top 1% of 1% to major in the field.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back in <i>my</i> day, in 6.001&#8230;  *shakes cane*</p>
<p>Actually, back in my day, despite that 6.001 did cover a lot of stuff that I hadn&#8217;t been exposed to before, I still felt it moved too slowly, and I desperately wanted a 6.0012 that I could take analogous to 8.012.</p>
<p>On the other hand, there&#8217;s a perception with 8.012 that if you want to major in physics you <i>have</i> to take 8.012 and not 8.01, so if 8.012 is targeted at people with previous physics experience, that&#8217;s sending the message that you <i>have</i> to have previous physics experience to major in physics.  (I don&#8217;t know whether that&#8217;s actually the case or not.  Certainly I didn&#8217;t have enough previous physics experience coming in to be able to take 8.012.)  Course 6 definitely <i>doesn&#8217;t</i> want to send the message that you <i>have</i> to have previous CS experience to major in CS at MIT (and you don&#8217;t!).</p>
<p>So much of what you come in with academically is a function of privilege &#8212; I look at the kids who went to TJ, or had a huge selection of AP and honors and language courses to choose from, with a huge amount of envy, and I&#8217;m hugely <i>lucky</i> to have gotten the 3 AP classes and 7 or so local college classes I got in high school.  Even only six years on, it&#8217;s now much harder for students at my old high school to get those opportunities, due to a variety of administrative and other changes.  A lot of my programming experience comes from having gotten interested in it at a formative age, having parents and grandparents who were willing to guide me as best they could, and just being obsessed with it for a decade or so before coming to MIT.  Not everybody gets that.  Certainly it would have been much harder for me to do the same thing with physics or math had I wanted to, because even those resources wouldn&#8217;t have been available to me.</p>
<p>On some level CS <i>is</i> a more democratic field than physics or math, mostly in that in CS you&#8217;re not nearly so locked into an academic career path, and it&#8217;s not expected that the brightest 1% of 1% are <i>necessarily</i> going to go academic.  (The brightest 1% of 1% are just as likely to swan off and found a startup or work for a Google or something, and even CS academia has a lot more overlap with industry than physics or math academia.)</p>
<p>There must be some way to meet the needs of the top 1% of 1%, without sending a message to the remaining 99% of 1% that you must be in the top 1% of 1% to major in the field.</p>
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		<title>By: Piper</title>
		<link>http://blog.gregbrockman.com/2010/02/improving-the-introductory-cs-experience/comment-page-1/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>Piper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gregbrockman.com/?p=18#comment-4</guid>
		<description>While I&#039;m sure you feel babied in 6.01, the course still requires too much to be a proper introductory class.  They do try to make allocations for n00bs by offsetting due dates for a couple of assignments, but this isn&#039;t enough.  If you don&#039;t know programming, you either have to do a ridiculous amount of work for some period or fall being.

Unless they revamp the course, I personally think they should require taking 6.00.  If you want to test out of it or you took whatever AP class is offered in computer science, that&#039;s all good, and people can take classes starting at the appropriate level rather than everyone being forced to leap ahead or be held behind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I&#8217;m sure you feel babied in 6.01, the course still requires too much to be a proper introductory class.  They do try to make allocations for n00bs by offsetting due dates for a couple of assignments, but this isn&#8217;t enough.  If you don&#8217;t know programming, you either have to do a ridiculous amount of work for some period or fall being.</p>
<p>Unless they revamp the course, I personally think they should require taking 6.00.  If you want to test out of it or you took whatever AP class is offered in computer science, that&#8217;s all good, and people can take classes starting at the appropriate level rather than everyone being forced to leap ahead or be held behind.</p>
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		<title>By: Alioth</title>
		<link>http://blog.gregbrockman.com/2010/02/improving-the-introductory-cs-experience/comment-page-1/#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator>Alioth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.gregbrockman.com/?p=18#comment-3</guid>
		<description>I like your ideas here, and I wish I were so optimistic as to think that MIT&#039;s CS faculty are thinking of implementing them. I&#039;ll also note that &quot;aiming at the middle&quot; cuts off learning for the people at the lower end of the preparation spectrum, who &lt;i&gt;need&lt;/i&gt; this sort of babying. It&#039;s tough to be learning about some relatively theoretical CS concept and also be worrying about semicolons.

6.01 aims pretty squarely in the middle, which is problematic because I really think the distribution is closer to bimodal. I don&#039;t have data, but it seems like there&#039;s mostly people who hack on kernels and people who have never coded before. I actually found 6.01 extremely worthwhile because I had coded enough to be comfortable coding, but was not an expert and did not know most of the conceptual stuff they taught. I got the impression that most of the rest of the class was either bored or flailing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like your ideas here, and I wish I were so optimistic as to think that MIT&#8217;s CS faculty are thinking of implementing them. I&#8217;ll also note that &#8220;aiming at the middle&#8221; cuts off learning for the people at the lower end of the preparation spectrum, who <i>need</i> this sort of babying. It&#8217;s tough to be learning about some relatively theoretical CS concept and also be worrying about semicolons.</p>
<p>6.01 aims pretty squarely in the middle, which is problematic because I really think the distribution is closer to bimodal. I don&#8217;t have data, but it seems like there&#8217;s mostly people who hack on kernels and people who have never coded before. I actually found 6.01 extremely worthwhile because I had coded enough to be comfortable coding, but was not an expert and did not know most of the conceptual stuff they taught. I got the impression that most of the rest of the class was either bored or flailing.</p>
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